Oshun ([info]heartofoshun) wrote,
@ 2008-12-01 20:07:00
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Thanks to all the lizards who helped with Elwing!


Thanks to everyone from the Lizard Council writers group who got called upon at the last minute to check my math on the Elwing geneology table. I finally finished the Elwing character bio earlier today and Dawn should have the monthly update on the SWG website finished shortly.

You guys are amazing and sooo generous with my last-minute cries for help.

The monthly character bio on Elwing is up on the Silmarillion Writers Guild now. http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/characterofthemonth/elwing.php

A teaser: it's controversial.

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[info]nierielraina
2008-12-02 01:41 am UTC (link)
Shoot shoot shoot! I have GOT to get back over there and get more active! I've been trying to juggle two writer's groups and several yahoo groups, but I love you lizards! There has got to be a way to slow down the clock. I need more hours in my day! :)

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 01:44 am UTC (link)
I love it there too! That one was so up against a rapidly slipping away deadline that I hunted a few good math people down personally by email and IM and foisted it on them. They're great.

Edited at 2008-12-02 01:44 am UTC

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[info]morethmusing
2008-12-02 07:28 am UTC (link)
O.o A Rock Agama!

And many congratulations on finally finishing the damn thing - I know it's given you a major headache ;P

I'm afraid that after that bad!fic you posted the other week your subversive image of Elwing is firmly lodged in my head...

Edited at 2008-12-02 11:06 am UTC

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Gorgeous lizard, right? I adored that photo when I saw it.

I know. That bio is a re-hash of my badfic, isn't it?

Edited at 2008-12-02 03:27 pm UTC

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[info]elfscribe5
2008-12-02 08:10 am UTC (link)
I just read your excellent article on Elwing and particularly enjoyed the section about Tolkien's treatment of women, which, I think we can all agree is lacking and particularly when we look at the Elwing character. As your article brings out, it is strange that the Noldor were punished so severely for their response, whereas she is treated as a heroine for doing basically the same thing -- valuing the Silmaril over flesh and blood relationships.

I became positively cross-eyed when looking at the genealogy stuff - although I'd seen a similar analysis in an article written by Tyellas. There again, makes one wonder about the importance of that tainted man-blood in getting called half-elven even if you're only 3/32 or so human. LOL.

Great job anyway. And where can one access these articles? I recently tried to find past bios on SWG because I wanted to check on something and couldn't figure it out. They should be prominently placed somewhere.

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[info]binkaslibrary
2008-12-02 01:15 pm UTC (link)
You can find them here :)

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Thanks, Elfscribe! I actually remember seeing a brief note about it in Tyellas' bio of Elrohir and Elladan, which is a very interesting piece as I recall it. (I seem to remember thinking she took her figures from someone else and noted it might not be exact. I have to go back and look, but I think the final numbers might be different. Talk about self-indulgent geekery on my part and me mathematical challenged at that! I think I need a real job, but stuff like this is just too much fun.)

On the percentage of man-blood vs. half-elven blood, it is not any more crazy in the case of Elrond's kids than it is in the reverse when the discussion is the manifestations of the elven blood of Aragorn or Imrahil, for example. But it is fascinating to write about--for example in your Swan prince fic or in my Princess and the Horse Lord novel, where we were both attracted to focusing on that element in our stories (to good effect I must self-servingly say!).

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[info]chaotic_binky
2008-12-02 08:55 am UTC (link)
That must have taken a lot of work. Very interesting about how Tolkien's women do not have the same strength to their roles as the men and the analogy to women's roles in mediaeval literature was very apt.

I wonder how much Tolkien actually knew about women, apart from his wife. It takes a particularly cold hearted woman to abandon her small children whatever is at stake and I wonder if he realised how strong maternal bonds really are.

Why is it called the Lizard Council?

Hugs Binky xxxx

Edited at 2008-12-02 08:58 am UTC

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[info]rhapsody11
2008-12-02 01:49 pm UTC (link)
I wonder how much Tolkien actually knew about women, apart from his wife. It takes a particularly cold hearted woman to abandon her small children whatever is at stake and I wonder if he realised how strong maternal bonds really are.

I wonder about that too, being a mom myself. I rather die to ensure the safety of my kids than defend an object which keeps that oath alive. I somehow think Edith didn't envolve him that much in what she did as a mom, leaving me to ponder that he was only to cut the meat on Sunday. I know he wrote and read stories for his kids, so that still remains a puzzle to me.

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[info]chaotic_binky
2008-12-02 03:08 pm UTC (link)
It is very puzzling, isn't it?

Hugs Binky xxx

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 03:58 pm UTC (link)
Loving his children and reading them stories: as you well know, my dear, that's the tip of the iceberg! I can remember an incident vividly when Laura was an adorable three-month old baby (albeit colicky as hell and hyperactive already). I was a bleary-eyed and sleep-deprived nursing mother with another active child and a very spoiled husband. My husband's grandmother visited me, an elegant, once quite wealthy woman, who had raised her children in pre-WWII Budapest with a houseful of servants and a country home, etc, etc. She was waxing sentimental about how those were the happest days of her life--the days when she was nursing her own babies. How her husband and family insisted that she get plenty of rest, stress about nothing, and eat well. Her nanny would bring the babies to her all bathed and smelling sweet for her to nurse them. I almost cried right then and there. My house was a wreck. I wondered if I would ever again get a good night's sleep. My boss was phoning daily asking me when I would be back at work, etc., etc. What could a guy like Tolkien know about women? He worked and thrived in an all-male environment, did not consider his wife an intellectual equal, and came home to fresh sweet children in a clean house every night.

Edited at 2008-12-02 04:01 pm UTC

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[info]rhapsody11
2008-12-02 04:14 pm UTC (link)
You're forgetting one sentence at the end: and could coveniently write and read stories to them.

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 04:17 pm UTC (link)
Not forgetting it: but kicking in an already open-door! Commiserating with you. I know you, of all people, particularly at this point in your life, fully understand these points.

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[info]rhapsody11
2008-12-02 04:22 pm UTC (link)
Oh yes, I will admit I spoil my hubby immensely. Even when I am at the end of my rope, I still let him have his hobby moments, especially during the weekends. He's always so tired when he has to watch over Kevin for an hour when I do grocery shopping because Kevin is so busy... Yet he loves those moment and is the designated cleaner when Kevin pukes... ;)

But Earendil, you know, I do wonder about him sometimes. I think if both lived in our age, they had their kids in daycare.

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Earendil! I would have strangled Earendil--leaving me with twins and sailing off into the sunset. He would have found the door locked when he came home for a visit. But that's me!

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[info]chaotic_binky
2008-12-02 04:20 pm UTC (link)
Tolkien was like countless other fathers at the time. Children were seen and not heard and I expect that most children did not know there fathers very well at all.

When my kids were tiny, my friend had a nanny and I had a cleaner. We envied each other lol

Edited at 2008-12-02 04:21 pm UTC

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 04:29 pm UTC (link)
My friend had a nanny and I had a cleaner. We envied each other lol

No kidding! You need both! My sisters were like that when I lived in Mexico. They described me as unemployed, with a cleaning lady and a laundry woman. Actually, I was busy working freelance, going to school fulltime, raising a young child, and trying to keep house in a third-world setting, with all the expectations professionally of the first world.

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[info]chaotic_binky
2008-12-02 04:41 pm UTC (link)
It is strange how people think that if you are a mother then you are actually doing hardly anything at all.

My MIL was very critical of me having a cleaner as I did not work. She said, "What do you do all day" lol Suffered a lot from envy that woman!

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 04:45 pm UTC (link)
That's like my daughter when she recently lost her job. In the end, she only off a little more than a month. She was excited about the new one, but the first thing she said to me was: "Damn, mom! I didn't even get to clean my house yet!" Hey, that's what staying home with a baby is like.

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[info]chaotic_binky
2008-12-02 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Playing with the baby is much more important than cleaning house and lots more fun lol

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Why is it called the Lizard Council?

I guess because Claudio/Darth Fingon started it and he wanted a ridiculous name? ( http://www.lizardcouncil.proboards82.com/index.cgi ) Basically just another writer's circle but filled with some smart and irreverent people. Also, my initial attraction, is a slash-friendly place to get reactions/advice to draft work.

I haven't done much research, but friends have pointed me to his Letters and other places for some rather unusual comments revealing his attitude about women's roles in general aside from his writing.

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[info]chaotic_binky
2008-12-02 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Looks an interesting site. Still reading.....

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[info]pandemonium_213
2008-12-02 11:59 am UTC (link)
Oh, this is another masterful one! As I said in the review of Aulë, I relish your commentary along with the meticulous research. For example,

In the case of Elwing, the one example of concrete action on her part could be interpreted as less heroic and more an incomprehensible abandonment of her children, without any explanation of why this should be accepted as a positive choice, and the apparent assumption on the part of her creator that it will be accepted as such. Conversely, the ranks of the Noldor, and by extension the peoples of Middle-earth, are punished harshly for actively seeking recompense for the murder of their King and the theft of their greatest technical achievement. Elwing, on the other hand, is rewarded for refusing to return a Silmaril to its rightful owners.

ZING!

And that reference to Euripides' Medea? Oh, ZING again!

Of course, it comes as no surprise that I very much appreciate your remarks on women in the legendarium. Frankly, you are being gentle here. [Irreverence incoming]One need only look to *cough* Ælfwine's *cough* observation that elven-women are pregnant for one year -- one year -- then give birth through a biped's pelvis to read a rather uncomfortable sub-text here[/Irreverence outgoing]. OK, I'm kidding. Well, maybe not.

The charts read well, too.

Elwing's abandonment of her children disturbs me far more now than when I first read the Silm at the ripe old age of 23. Then there's the whole glimmering albatross bit and living a charmed life in Valinor. It's another one of those WTF situations in Tolkien's stories.

I know it took some blood, sweat and tears to get this out with the other distractions, but the result is another entertaining biography. You're leaving other sites' bios in the dust.

ETA: Chaotic Binky's comment made me think of the entry on Edith Bratt Tolkien in Scull and Hammond's The JRRT Companion and Guide. Both [info]gandalfs_appren and I honed in on that as soon as we got our respective copies of the volumes. Theirs was not a marriage of equals, and by that I mean, not so much who washes the dishes and such, but intellectual equals.

Edited at 2008-12-02 12:05 pm UTC

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 04:10 pm UTC (link)
Hey, thanks for reading and the over-the-top comments! You are such an instigator encouragement. Rhapsody's comments on this thread make me want to do more research on Tolkien's women and women in fantasy in general. I onlyu made one trip to the library on this one and wished I could have done more. (Like I need another project.)

As you may or may not know, I was dragged kicking and screaming by Dawn to write more bios on Tolkien's women at one point. Force-marched to do so because they didn't really grab me or incite my imagination. I wanted to write about all those sword-swinging, passionate men writ large and, for good or ill, big.

Of course, you do very well at fleshing out the nameless women into the characters they might have been. My icon above is my OC Tadiel and wee Gil-galad--hope to start covering her more in this current WIP novel.

Edited at 2008-12-02 04:11 pm UTC

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[info]lethe_lloyd
2008-12-02 12:57 pm UTC (link)
It's terrific! I don't really find it that controversial, but it gives much food for thought. I went the probably easiest road by imagining Elwing was somehow * touched * by the Silmaril and considered it more important than her sons.( Possibly because, as you suggested, she considered they were doomed.) However, the Silmaril influenced Thingol in a way which was not truly evil - in comparison with the One Ring - but still seemed somewhat obsessive.

You worked really hard on that - it's a great article.

You quoted Patricia McKillip, I have only found one person who has read her lovely little trilogy, ' The Riddle Master of Hed, heir of Sea and Fire and Harpist in the Wind ' which do have a beautiful red headed woman as a main character. I liked Raederle, I did not think her a Sue.

I agree that apart from the more universal and seemingly deeper appeal of Tolkien, fantasy books which do present strong females seem to produce much less fanfiction. It may simply be that due to the films Tolkien is better known, but there appears to be a strong desire of writers to want to either flesh out one of Tolkiens existing females or place one within his male oriented universe.

Great job!

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 05:15 pm UTC (link)
It's terrific! I don't really find it that controversial, but it gives much food for thought.

Thank you so much, as always, for your support! It should have been better, but, as usual, I stalled and fooled around until I had slammed hard up against the deadline. From comments on my f-list today, a lot of people did not find it that controversial--but then this is a rather self-selecting group of seriously well-read and questioning people.

I went the probably easiest road by imagining Elwing was somehow * touched * by the Silmaril and considered it more important than her sons.( Possibly because, as you suggested, she considered they were doomed.) However, the Silmaril influenced Thingol in a way which was not truly evil - in comparison with the One Ring - but still seemed somewhat obsessive.

Dawn has some thoughts on the lines of yours, which she has not explained in detail to me. Also, about the creation of the Silmarils and that Feanor had to insert elements of himself into them which would mean that breaking them up was self-destruction (I'm sure I am way oversimplifying/misstating her position here). Mine are much more simplistic (and modern). Stealing is stealing and holding stolen property is not kosher. Then there is the question of intellectual property rights and murder. If the Silmaril had been mine, I would have told the Valar to call my lawyer.

You quoted Patricia McKillip, I have only found one person who has read her lovely little trilogy, ' The Riddle Master of Hed, heir of Sea and Fire and Harpist in the Wind ' which do have a beautiful red headed woman as a main character. I liked Raederle, I did not think her a Sue.

I have not read McKillip myself, but now you've intrigued me. I basically just cited that one book. I had seen a couple of other articles in the past that I wish I could have found again. But a one trip to the library and few quick and dirty internet searches netted less than I had hoped. If I had been writing an article about women fantasy writers, I can thin of a lot of people I personally would have referenced, and I am far from well-versed in fantasy writing. Off the top of my head I think of the takes on women and gender in Ellen Kushner's books, Delia Sherman, and the older Darkover series by Marion Zimmer Bradley. Like I said, I am not well read in the area of sci-fi/fantasy.

I agree that apart from the more universal and seemingly deeper appeal of Tolkien, fantasy books which do present strong females seem to produce much less fanfiction.

I was teasing fellow f-lister, Josh Lanyon, who writes gay detective novels recently that he didn't need to worry about me writing fanfic of his books, because he handles the guys so well and trust him to keep doing that in future books. (Also, he is a productive powerhouse so one doesn't have to wait years and years for the next in a series.) The other side of fanfic for me is getting so involved in the characters that one wants simply MORE and sooner. There is never enough. But, for me, The Silmarillion is irresistible because the drama is there and the plot, but with so little fleshing out of personalities that I cannot resist re-creating the characters with real emotions and a backstory.

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[info]lethe_lloyd
2008-12-02 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Dawn has some thoughts on the lines of yours, which she has not explained in detail to me. Also, about the creation of the Silmarils and that Feanor had to insert elements of himself into them which would mean that breaking them up was self-destruction

That's very much what I think - and it was certainly what he appeared to believe.

Maybe a man would look at it differently, it would be interesting to know. I feel that Elwing had to be influenced by more than panic or fear to abandon Elros and Elrond. I don't think a mother would, no *normal * mother who loved her kids anyway.

As you say, she was saved and rewarded for her act. Possibly again, it would take a man to write women so. I have the impression he may not have known women all that well as they do tend to be oversimplified or ignored in his work. If they're * good * they're glorious, ( too much so, they don't see attractive but almost untouchable and angelic ) and those few mentioned like Haleth who were proactive and warriors either didn't marry, lost their husbands, or like Eowyn, turned to peaceful pursuits. They were Mortal, I know, and there tends to be the feeling that Elvish women were in some way unsexed by war,( they didn't even get pregnant during times of war according to Finrod ) and that procreation and nurture was antithetical to violence and killing.

It seems his own views show quite strongly through much of his works. It does not bother me much, as I love history and historically, in most cultures women were not warriors, although they might have a lot of influence and be powerful. In a pseudo-Medieval setting I expect it, but he gives women less time and less ' flesh ' even than contemporary historians writing in earlier times would.

But, for me, The Silmarillion is irresistible because the drama is there and the plot, but with so little fleshing out of personalities that I cannot resist re-creating the characters with real emotions and a backstory.

I'm so glad it is irresistable to you :D

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 06:42 pm UTC (link)
I love history and historically, in most cultures women were not warriors, although they might have a lot of influence and be powerful. In a pseudo-Medieval setting I expect it, but he gives women less time and less ' flesh ' even than contemporary historians writing in earlier times would.

I haven't yet written women characters as much as I would like to, but mainly because I am very demanding. I don't want to dress them up like a man and give them a sword. I want them to be strong within the context of the created norms of their own societies. Historical examples would be people like Elizabeth I, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Teresa of Avila, and Sœur Juana de la Cruz of Mexico. They used intellct and political acuity to try to compete in a man's world. But the effort took its toll, which makes their accomplishments that much more impressive. And they didn't survive unscathed. Which for me makes them more real and interesting. I don't want them to look perfect or without flaws or without evidence of the cost of the attempts to keep them in their place.

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[info]lethe_lloyd
2008-12-02 07:04 pm UTC (link)
I don't want to dress them up like a man and give them a sword.

Unless they're Jean d'Arc d;-)

But the effort took its toll, which makes their accomplishments that much more impressive. And they didn't survive unscathed.

The old saying of women having to work twice as hard as a man is probably still true. Those were good examples, except I am not failiar with Sœur Juana de la Cruz of Mexico. I just looked her up after coming up with lists in Spanish and realizing Sœur is ' Sister ' * facepalm * . Hmm, I am rather ashamed of not knowing who she was, she seems to have been remarkable.

I don't want them to look perfect or without flaws or without evidence of the cost of the attempts to keep them in their place. Many of Tolkien's males were flawed ( all I would imagine, or it would be very uninteresting ) so don't like to see the women written of as saintly or passive and nunlike.

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 07:38 pm UTC (link)
Unless they're Jean d'Arc d;-)

Poor girl! She didn't have a chance. Possibly paranoid schizophrenic caught between the politicians and the Church.

Sœur Juana de la Cruz of Mexico

She had a hard time with the male scholars of her day, but nobody remembers their names now. But she had to go to a convent and become a nun.

Same for Teresa of Avila. When I first started writing erotica, I used some of Teresa's accounts of her religious "visions" for inspiration. Talk about sublimation of sexuality into something else--look up some of her writings on the internet.




Edited at 2008-12-02 07:42 pm UTC

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[info]lethe_lloyd
2008-12-02 08:02 pm UTC (link)
Oddly enough I got sent some charity cards from St Teresa of Avila's order, a few days ago.

Talk about sublimation of sexuality into something else--look up some of her writings on the internet.

I will do. Sounds interesting.

Possibly paranoid schizophrenic caught between the politicians and the Church.

Who were often the same thing and still are.

Oh, I forgot: if you can get hold of that trilogy of Patricia McKillip it is a delightful read. The books are not big ( you'd probably read the whole trilogy in a day or two ) and I love her characters and prose.

I've never read anything else by her and when I was given the first book years back, I found that they went out of print at about the same time, ( typical ) so I had to order the second two. Took ages, no internet then!

It's fantasy without being outrageous, rather like Tolkien. She has a great knack with her females too, in fact all the characters, she draws them so wonderfully in a few words. I read and re-read them, I think they're little gems and I'm really surprised so few people know them.

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 08:08 pm UTC (link)
trilogy of Patricia McKillip

I will try to find them. I have read so little fantasy and here I am trying to write it! I am making up a short list for myself. I have to re-try the whole George R.R. Martin series, all which were gifted to me and highly recommended, and I couldn't get into them when I first tried, but I was busy and distracted at the time.

By the way, how did you find Swordspoint? Or have you read it yet?

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[info]lethe_lloyd
2008-12-02 10:27 pm UTC (link)
how did you find Swordspoint? Or have you read it yet?

I was going to come in and edit my previous post.
I started it today, and I really like it. It does not actually remind me of any other author, save that the setting and scene is like a more racy Georgette Heyer book. I am enjoying it! Thank-you!

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[info]dawn_felagund
2008-12-03 02:44 am UTC (link)
Oshun pointed me here with the enticement of "good discussion," which she knows will get me every time. Shame, Oshun! ;)

Anyway, you are talking about one of my favorite topics! So I had to chime in, although I have schoolwork that I should be doing.

I feel that Elwing had to be influenced by more than panic or fear to abandon Elros and Elrond. I don't think a mother would, no *normal * mother who loved her kids anyway.

I totally agree with this! On my blog, Raksha the Demon and I were actually just talking about this, about Elwing's rather bizarre reaction to the Silmaril. Personally, I think that the Silmaril behaves rather like the addictive drug that people always compare the One Ring to: it adversely influences the behavior of its keeper(s); it makes them obsess and become irrational and behave out-of-character. Like a mother deserting her two small children to a band of murderers to jump in the ocean with a rock.

I do think that Feanor put part of himself into the Silmarils, which is why he was loathe to destroy them, but I think that the Silmarils cause the (mis)behavior that they do because they are a way by which light--which should be freely available to all--can be coveted and kept. I think that light throughout Tolkien's works is used as yet another symbol of the forbidden and the danger of attempting to acquire and "master" that which should be left alone (mostly "forbidden knowledge").

As you say, she was saved and rewarded for her act.

*grrrrr* As a Feanatic, Elwing's cushy treatment is maddening to me. But, of course (borrowing on a conspiracy theory from [info]tarion_anarore), she was bringing a Silmaril to the Valar and, surprisingly, they decided that they weren't that much against trying to apprehend Melkor. Hmmmm ... ;)

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[info]lethe_lloyd
2008-12-03 08:24 am UTC (link)
I totally agree with this! On my blog, Raksha the Demon and I were actually just talking about this, about Elwing's rather bizarre reaction to the Silmaril. Personally, I think that the Silmaril behaves rather like the addictive drug that people always compare the One Ring to: it adversely influences the behavior of its keeper(s); it makes them obsess and become irrational and behave out-of-character. Like a mother deserting her two small children to a band of murderers to jump in the ocean with a rock.

I do think that Feanor put part of himself into the Silmarils, which is why he was loathe to destroy them, but I think that the Silmarils cause the (mis)behavior that they do because they are a way by which light--which should be freely available to all--can be coveted and kept. I think that light throughout Tolkien's works is used as yet another symbol of the forbidden and the danger of attempting to acquire and "master" that which should be left alone (mostly "forbidden knowledge").

*grrrrr* As a Feanatic, Elwing's cushy treatment is maddening to me. But, of course (borrowing on a conspiracy theory from [info]tarion_anarore), she was bringing a Silmaril to the Valar and, surprisingly, they decided that they weren't that much against trying to apprehend Melkor. Hmmmm ... ;)

O.O

Sometimes I think you read my mind. I was busy last evening, and kept rushing through replies, but I was going to put in my post something along the lines of ' Well, Elwing was saved and forgiven because she had a Silmaril and of course the Valar helped her get back to Valinor.Melkor was probably not merely stirring it when he suggested to Fëanor that the Valar coveted the jewels.'

In my AU, I do use the idea that the light within the Silmarils which was so perilous was not that of the Trees ( or valinor would have been impossible to live in ) but Fëanor's own fire. That's only in my AU of course, but yes, I agree with all of that. Then again, I write the Valar as near prisoners of the Noldor of Aman, trying to control them, because I've never been that impressed with the majority of them and their acts - or lack thereof.

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[info]rhapsody11
2008-12-02 01:46 pm UTC (link)
Is it bad that I like controversial? On the note of female fantasy writers... Marion Zimmer Bradley also comes to mind who wrote an entire Arthurian myth (and following books/series) from the female perspective. I guess it still irks me that based on history (where women hardly seem to play a role besides those you cited), women are seen as less important. Although Erendis in Tolkien makes up for that view or even Andreth perhaps. Or... Haleth! :) All Edain, I just realise, hmmm.

Great bio Oshun, loved it!

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 03:14 pm UTC (link)
Thanks a lot, Rhapsody! Just what I don't need in my life! A monstrous slavering bunny who wants a research piece written on women in fantasy lit in general and/or a comparative study of Tolkien's women. I was in the library and really, the only serious studies of Tolkien's women I could unearth in a couple of hours were in religious journals defending women in passive/supportive roles

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[info]rhapsody11
2008-12-02 04:18 pm UTC (link)
I am wondering, hasn't that been done already? Do you want me to poke around a bit? I am not saying you didn't search good enough, but that's kind of my profession still, to search for articles so I might pull a few bunnies out of that hat.

I was in the library and really, the only serious studies of Tolkien's women I could unearth in a couple of hours were in religious journals defending women in passive/supportive roles

That doesn't surprise me at all, I mean that they'd defend such a position. After all empowered women are scary to them. ;)

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 04:25 pm UTC (link)
I am wondering, hasn't that been done already? Do you want me to poke around a bit? I am not saying you didn't search good enough, but that's kind of my profession still, to search for articles so I might pull a few bunnies out of that hat.

If you can find anything, let me know. I was very rushed. I also recall, in particular, reading a very short, but good, article on the subject written by Ursula Le Guin. When I wanted it, I couldn't find it again.

Not promising I will write this article, but it is increasingly hard for me to shake. I got a little testy when Dawn was prompting me a few months ago, to write more about Tolkien's women in Tthe Silmarillion. Because it is so hard to do them any justice without going far afield and raising other issues, which I barely touched on in this piece. (Galadriel is one I would like to write, but that will be so complicated, and involve so many references, it will be like trying to summarize a doctoral thesis in 1,500 words.)

Edited at 2008-12-02 06:45 pm UTC

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[info]rhapsody11
2008-12-02 07:53 pm UTC (link)
Hmm I will be rather busy the coming days, but I can't shake off the impression that I saw something regarding that topic :)

Galadriel will be difficult I agree, but after reading Keiliss' Footsteps in Time I realised that perhaps I always judged Glads too harshly.

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 07:55 pm UTC (link)
That was an excellent story. She still drives me batty, however, but she at least has some interesting contradictions and complexity. An ambitious woman! Wow!

Hmm I will be rather busy the coming days, but I can't shake off the impression that I saw something regarding that topic :)

Hey! No pressure. I realize you do not have a nanny! But if the spirit moves you...


Edited at 2008-12-02 07:57 pm UTC

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-02 08:11 pm UTC (link)
Great bio Oshun, loved it!

I just noticed that I didn't say thank you! I am so rude sometimes, I get so caught up in my enthusiasm of the moment, which was your inspiration to me to think more deeply about the subject.

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[info]rhapsody11
2008-12-02 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Oh that's ok :) But with this bio and Dawn's essay at the Heretic loremaster I had much much food for thought today!

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[info]dawn_felagund
2008-12-03 02:55 am UTC (link)
You totally snookered me into jumping into this discussion! :D I loved the bio (as I told you), and it's really got me thinking about a lot of things. I started my new semester yesterday, and one of my classes is Women Writers. I read Virginia Wolfe's "A Room of One's Own" today about female authorship and the difference between how men and women write, and your Elwing essay kept popping into my mind. Especially since Wolfe was almost contemporaneous with Tolkien. Reading through the comments here about how Tolkien didn't "get" women, I think that has something to do with it. Wolfe makes the observation that, in the early 20th century, men just didn't write about women outside of very predictable roles (wife, mother, housemaid), and shallowly at that. Women's roles in fiction tended to center around their use to men rather than as independent people.

Granted, Tolkien was a bit later than this, but I think it's still really relevant that the man was in his thirties when women in England got the right to vote. He was an old fart when the women's liberation movement was really getting underway!

So I'm not surprised that we get a lot of Luthiens and Elwings, who are beautiful and angelic but who, when read by real women, make us go, "WTF?? Why would a mother jump off a cliff and leave her two little boys to a hoard of murderers??" or who fail to be entranced by Luthien and write more about Haleth and women like Anaire, who get named once in an obscure essay somewhere. In fact, I've always been fairly impressed with Tolkien in that he does at least cast women in heroic roles (Luthien, Eowyn), even if their characters are somewhat flat, even if I wince at L&C and the Awakening legends in Quendi and Eldar. But, I think, it could be much worse. And where he left flat female characterizations, I've learned, I really like to fill in the blanks! :D

Thank you, as always, for doing such a lovely job!

Also, I think you're definitely off the hook for having to write women characters for a while. ;)

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[info]heartofoshun
2008-12-03 03:43 am UTC (link)
Oh, you are so welcome and thank you for giving me the space and the encouragement to write these.

Virginia Wolfe's "A Room of One's Own"

Was my battle call in my youth. Unfortunately, I didn't get that opportunity until I was menopausal and already by now at least half batshit crazy. I am having fun now. Just feeling a little guilty that I am not doing more original work.

I am not knocking Tolkien for what he has given us--tremendous imaginative scope and such a rich history to romp around in. Just love to rant about the parts that rub me wrong.

Also, I think you're definitely off the hook for having to write women characters for a while. ;)

Not afraid of what I will say, are you? I'm just kidding, of course. Where else among the Tolkien sites on the internet would pieces like this be not only tolerated, but welcomed, even featured? You provide a precious resource.


Edited at 2008-12-03 03:46 am UTC

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